Please ban the "Bombing run" maneuver in 2.0
Greetings.
Since I did an Artemis booth, I kinda got back in touch with the game and with some enthusiasts that play it. We had some dicsussion about balance in Artemis, and I have spent some time seriously theorycrafting and thinking about how could we make the gameplay really better than it is. We looked at different mods that did some things well or made game better in some aspects. And I returned to the old problem I had with the game, which basically made my team never play Warp drive after we played some games on it, because on Warp drive, the game was just SO trivial on any ship (unless you take diff 11 in which case you just can't kill enemies fast enough with two smaller ships).
Therefore, I'd like to bring attention to this matter, because I've read all the threads about 2.0 features and progress, and I don't see word about this being fixed.
Basically, please make it so that it is no longer possible to just drop mines on your enemies's heads.
It is a maneuver that involves moving at warp into the middle of the fleet (or past an elite) and then firing mines when you're about 500m away from the center of the fleet, or the elite. This results in huge amounts of damage inflicted on the enemy (around 300 on the closest one and 200 on others). This is more even than two nukes, because nukes have a tendency to hit both shileds since the ship hit by the nuke continues moving while nuke "explosion" point that deals damage stays where the nuke first hit the enemy, so nuke first hits front and then rear shield.
Since mines are ridiculously abundant (like 30 on every base), you have enough mines to blow up every enemy in the game this way.
This manuever totally annihilates any need of managing subsystems, learning combat maneuvers, like keeping yourselves out of enemy firing arcs, learning to fire beams effectively, scanning enemy ships, managing nukes supply, anything! You don't need to manage supplies, energy, use help of allied vessels, anything. You just put front shields on 300 (or 250), come in, then put rear on 300 after you're past the first enemy ship, drop mines, then repeat if they're alive or finish off with beams if they're immobilised but not dead. Even elites that cloak or blink away from incoming projectiles can't do anything because they die to the mines anyway even if cloaked, and AI won't blink away from mines. Any fleet in the game, any enemy in the game is easilly killed that way.
Now, as long as this maneuver stays viable, in my opinion the game will never be "balanced" on Warp drive. Now of course, game doesn't have to be very balanced in a sense that games like League of Legends or Starcraft 2 are, since it's a cooperative experience more than competitive, but then again, there should not be an easy maneuver that overpowers everything. It just ruins the point of the game. There should be enemies that require clever use or kinetic ordinance, enemies that require cleever use of beams, enemies that require good maneuver skills, enemies that require engineer to be very quick with switching presets, enemies that require planning and thinking etc. Some enemies may require mining to deal with. But if one maneuver trumps them all, it's just no fun... You have to either promise to yourself to never use this maneuver, or basically you get bored playing at Warp drive very fast because game becomes too easy.
In my opinion, easiest fix to the problem is to allow mines to be fired upon (this is already in game as an elite ability as I've read) AND make mines that stay in place for around 10 seconds turn invisible for the enemy (cloaked). Also change mines to become activated after a longer period (about 5 seconds) so that enemy ships would always have enough time to fire on a mine. and make enemies target mines as a priority with their beams.
Then change elite ability from "anti mine gun" to "detect mines". Or, since you're making all enemies to avoid environmental hazards, make it so elites can fire on invisible mines but normal enemies cannot, however normal enemies can detect preplaced minefields from some distance, so when they come close, their "avoid danger" AI kicks in and they go around the minefield, while elites will charge right in and fire on the mines to clear a path for themselves.
Btw, as a side effect, this would allow player to clear minefields that are ridiculously placed like near a starbase.
There are other ways to fix this too (for example, a nice fix would be to disallow firing weapons while ship is at warp speed, meaning until you slow down to impulse you cannot fire), but in any way, if this is left as it is now (with an exception of elites being able to fire on mines), it will just work as it is now (and even elite won't survive, since it has a long weapon cycle time and it has already fired on the player with all its guns while player was approaching, so it won't be able to pick off the mine until it goes off). And that means trivial games on warp drive, which isn't good.
Thanks!
Since I did an Artemis booth, I kinda got back in touch with the game and with some enthusiasts that play it. We had some dicsussion about balance in Artemis, and I have spent some time seriously theorycrafting and thinking about how could we make the gameplay really better than it is. We looked at different mods that did some things well or made game better in some aspects. And I returned to the old problem I had with the game, which basically made my team never play Warp drive after we played some games on it, because on Warp drive, the game was just SO trivial on any ship (unless you take diff 11 in which case you just can't kill enemies fast enough with two smaller ships).
Therefore, I'd like to bring attention to this matter, because I've read all the threads about 2.0 features and progress, and I don't see word about this being fixed.
Basically, please make it so that it is no longer possible to just drop mines on your enemies's heads.
It is a maneuver that involves moving at warp into the middle of the fleet (or past an elite) and then firing mines when you're about 500m away from the center of the fleet, or the elite. This results in huge amounts of damage inflicted on the enemy (around 300 on the closest one and 200 on others). This is more even than two nukes, because nukes have a tendency to hit both shileds since the ship hit by the nuke continues moving while nuke "explosion" point that deals damage stays where the nuke first hit the enemy, so nuke first hits front and then rear shield.
Since mines are ridiculously abundant (like 30 on every base), you have enough mines to blow up every enemy in the game this way.
This manuever totally annihilates any need of managing subsystems, learning combat maneuvers, like keeping yourselves out of enemy firing arcs, learning to fire beams effectively, scanning enemy ships, managing nukes supply, anything! You don't need to manage supplies, energy, use help of allied vessels, anything. You just put front shields on 300 (or 250), come in, then put rear on 300 after you're past the first enemy ship, drop mines, then repeat if they're alive or finish off with beams if they're immobilised but not dead. Even elites that cloak or blink away from incoming projectiles can't do anything because they die to the mines anyway even if cloaked, and AI won't blink away from mines. Any fleet in the game, any enemy in the game is easilly killed that way.
Now, as long as this maneuver stays viable, in my opinion the game will never be "balanced" on Warp drive. Now of course, game doesn't have to be very balanced in a sense that games like League of Legends or Starcraft 2 are, since it's a cooperative experience more than competitive, but then again, there should not be an easy maneuver that overpowers everything. It just ruins the point of the game. There should be enemies that require clever use or kinetic ordinance, enemies that require cleever use of beams, enemies that require good maneuver skills, enemies that require engineer to be very quick with switching presets, enemies that require planning and thinking etc. Some enemies may require mining to deal with. But if one maneuver trumps them all, it's just no fun... You have to either promise to yourself to never use this maneuver, or basically you get bored playing at Warp drive very fast because game becomes too easy.
In my opinion, easiest fix to the problem is to allow mines to be fired upon (this is already in game as an elite ability as I've read) AND make mines that stay in place for around 10 seconds turn invisible for the enemy (cloaked). Also change mines to become activated after a longer period (about 5 seconds) so that enemy ships would always have enough time to fire on a mine. and make enemies target mines as a priority with their beams.
Then change elite ability from "anti mine gun" to "detect mines". Or, since you're making all enemies to avoid environmental hazards, make it so elites can fire on invisible mines but normal enemies cannot, however normal enemies can detect preplaced minefields from some distance, so when they come close, their "avoid danger" AI kicks in and they go around the minefield, while elites will charge right in and fire on the mines to clear a path for themselves.
Btw, as a side effect, this would allow player to clear minefields that are ridiculously placed like near a starbase.
There are other ways to fix this too (for example, a nice fix would be to disallow firing weapons while ship is at warp speed, meaning until you slow down to impulse you cannot fire), but in any way, if this is left as it is now (with an exception of elites being able to fire on mines), it will just work as it is now (and even elite won't survive, since it has a long weapon cycle time and it has already fired on the player with all its guns while player was approaching, so it won't be able to pick off the mine until it goes off). And that means trivial games on warp drive, which isn't good.
Thanks!
I agree with a lot of your points. I've suggested when beams fire the attacker and the target each have a blast radius that knocks out warp engines for all nearby ships for a period of time 45 or 50 seconds so that to escape close range combat you would have to stay out of beam range of an attacker for that amount of time. In this case you could come in on high warp and get an initial bombing run off but you would then be on impulse speed leaving the Artemis vulnerable to fast moving enemies as each laser blast would knock out the warp engines again.
Early on I lowered the damage of the mines and increased the compliment as I feel that the bombing run is one of the only real tactics available. Pulling up to enemy fleet beyond their beam range and lobbing missiles at them takes no skill. Same with pulling face to face boosting beams and shields. Like I said if I could not access warp engines in this situation I'd have to evade and stay out of beam range long before my shields or engines where too damaged.
Concerning a delay on mines, this would pose a challenge for BvB which some of us prefer.
I'm open for whatever works!!!
Early on I lowered the damage of the mines and increased the compliment as I feel that the bombing run is one of the only real tactics available. Pulling up to enemy fleet beyond their beam range and lobbing missiles at them takes no skill. Same with pulling face to face boosting beams and shields. Like I said if I could not access warp engines in this situation I'd have to evade and stay out of beam range long before my shields or engines where too damaged.
Concerning a delay on mines, this would pose a challenge for BvB which some of us prefer.
I'm open for whatever works!!!
I spent several years addicted to WoW, and I think an easy way to do this is to adopt their 'In Combat' scheme...
Think of Warp as your travel mount. You can't mount 'in combat'. Impulse is your normal running speed, you can do that at any time.
As soon as you attack a target, or a target attacks you, you are 'in combat' and therefor can't use warp.
To get 'out of combat', you need to not attack or be attacked for say... 15 or 30 seconds.
To get to this state, you either need to destroy your target or evade them long enough that 'combat' drops and you are able to engage warp.
I think this is at the heart of what Charlie is saying, but no need to dress it up in lore of 'blast waves' etc... just call it what it is.
So, you can warp in... but as soon as you open fire or are fired upon, you're in battle until you defeat the enemy, or a skilled engineer and helm can get you enough speed to get away from him on impulse.
Now, sure this might remove some tactics that you see in Star Trek.. but there is a greater need to balance game play than to reproduce your favorite episode.
The other avenue would be to take the Stargate:Universe approach of your warp engines need to 'cool down' before you can jump to FTL again.
This would be independent of combat, but say your engines would take 50% damage if you go to warp again before the cool down period (2 minutes?) is up.
This gives you the flexibility to go to warp again in an emergency, but at a cost. If you drop out of warp to attack, engage warp again right away (50% damage), drop out to attack again and try to warp (50% more damage), your engines will be destroyed instead and you'll be dead in the water until they can be repaired.
Think of Warp as your travel mount. You can't mount 'in combat'. Impulse is your normal running speed, you can do that at any time.
As soon as you attack a target, or a target attacks you, you are 'in combat' and therefor can't use warp.
To get 'out of combat', you need to not attack or be attacked for say... 15 or 30 seconds.
To get to this state, you either need to destroy your target or evade them long enough that 'combat' drops and you are able to engage warp.
I think this is at the heart of what Charlie is saying, but no need to dress it up in lore of 'blast waves' etc... just call it what it is.
So, you can warp in... but as soon as you open fire or are fired upon, you're in battle until you defeat the enemy, or a skilled engineer and helm can get you enough speed to get away from him on impulse.
Now, sure this might remove some tactics that you see in Star Trek.. but there is a greater need to balance game play than to reproduce your favorite episode.
The other avenue would be to take the Stargate:Universe approach of your warp engines need to 'cool down' before you can jump to FTL again.
This would be independent of combat, but say your engines would take 50% damage if you go to warp again before the cool down period (2 minutes?) is up.
This gives you the flexibility to go to warp again in an emergency, but at a cost. If you drop out of warp to attack, engage warp again right away (50% damage), drop out to attack again and try to warp (50% more damage), your engines will be destroyed instead and you'll be dead in the water until they can be repaired.
I was considering a blast radius (like an EMP) around each ship so if 2 ships where side by side the attacking ship couldn't just take warp from but all 3 would lose it. I am definitely game for whatever works.
Another idea I had was, along with the above, make warp start to overheat if it is powered up for several seconds and not used. Then give a 6 to 8 second charge up time. This would force players not only to impulse speeds but also force a ship to power down warp engines during this period. If player evaded a laser blast for 45/50 seconds(this could show a charge level) warp comes back online, engineering powers it up and hopefully you are quicker than the attacking ship. Then it is a warp chase until laser blasts are exchanged.
Another idea I had was, along with the above, make warp start to overheat if it is powered up for several seconds and not used. Then give a 6 to 8 second charge up time. This would force players not only to impulse speeds but also force a ship to power down warp engines during this period. If player evaded a laser blast for 45/50 seconds(this could show a charge level) warp comes back online, engineering powers it up and hopefully you are quicker than the attacking ship. Then it is a warp chase until laser blasts are exchanged.
2 Charlie
Unfortunately, lowering mine damage just makes mines obsolete alltogether, because the game mechanic has aoe damage scale linearly from distance, so if you make mines not effective at point blank, they're useless as minefields.
2 Charlie / erickrarick
Actually, I'd rather not prevent going to warp because that removes one important aspect of the game: "Helms, get us out of here!". Really, retreating is important and mechanics of the game work in such way that if we don't allow warp in combat, as soon as ship's shields go down it's dead - they will just get impulse knocked down by incoming damage eventually and die.
So yeah, the way Artemis works, we need to be able to warp out of combat.
Also, there's really no problem with warping in and out, meaning it isn't "breaking the game" unless bombing runs are in place. So yeah, should not touch that IMHO, but rather fix the mines themselves.
Unfortunately, lowering mine damage just makes mines obsolete alltogether, because the game mechanic has aoe damage scale linearly from distance, so if you make mines not effective at point blank, they're useless as minefields.
2 Charlie / erickrarick
Actually, I'd rather not prevent going to warp because that removes one important aspect of the game: "Helms, get us out of here!". Really, retreating is important and mechanics of the game work in such way that if we don't allow warp in combat, as soon as ship's shields go down it's dead - they will just get impulse knocked down by incoming damage eventually and die.
So yeah, the way Artemis works, we need to be able to warp out of combat.
Also, there's really no problem with warping in and out, meaning it isn't "breaking the game" unless bombing runs are in place. So yeah, should not touch that IMHO, but rather fix the mines themselves.
There's only like 2 star treks episodes where micro warping is part of combat (the picard maneuver).
Otherwise, the ship warps in and starts shooting, or gets in trouble and then warps away to retreat
A cool down on the warp drive may solve the munchkin part of the problem of microwarping.
If you warp in to shoot the enemy, your drive has to cool down for a short bit
you can still shoot and impulse fly while waiting
Then you can warp away.
But warping in, drop mines, warp out wouldn't work.
I suspect the cool down period needs to be just long enough to prevent the cheezy tactic, but not so long as to prevent retreating (ala "helm, get us out of here")
The OP mentions not using Warp Drive anymore. That's because Jump Drive has a variant of this, in that it has a count-down before it can fire. The effect is the same, the ship can't willy-nilly jump in and out very quickly for free.
Otherwise, the ship warps in and starts shooting, or gets in trouble and then warps away to retreat
A cool down on the warp drive may solve the munchkin part of the problem of microwarping.
If you warp in to shoot the enemy, your drive has to cool down for a short bit
you can still shoot and impulse fly while waiting
Then you can warp away.
But warping in, drop mines, warp out wouldn't work.
I suspect the cool down period needs to be just long enough to prevent the cheezy tactic, but not so long as to prevent retreating (ala "helm, get us out of here")
The OP mentions not using Warp Drive anymore. That's because Jump Drive has a variant of this, in that it has a count-down before it can fire. The effect is the same, the ship can't willy-nilly jump in and out very quickly for free.
In the RP community warp is essential to our tactics and not just mine run. Boosting warp and doing a three second burst then stopping increasing maneuvering and closing in right behind them is a favorite. Without warp we lose pretty much all our tactics. Now I understand your concern on mines but we hardly ever use them. In the RP we try to go for long stints away from base. We usually return with no homeings, having picked up an anomaly, and only 2 or 3 hundred energy. We take the ships to there limits which means we rarely use mines. The trade off of damage to the ships shields isn't worth it when you aren't planning to return to base any time soon. In fact the most common use of mines is to take out pesky fighters. So if you play the ship in the most efficient way to minimize game time (almost always less than 30 minutes) this really isn't a problem.
To Mankind
And the hope that the war against folly may someday be won, after all
Isaac Asimov
And the hope that the war against folly may someday be won, after all
Isaac Asimov
While my tactics occasionally make use of the run, enemies in 2.0 are not as passive. Many of them can and do shoot down projectiles (including mines). Not all of them, and not all the time, but enough that sometimes that EMP+nuke combo gets shot out of the sky before they detonate; sometimes those mines get blown up before the actively detonate; plus the enemies actively path around mines. Give it a go when it gets released and see what you think. It wasn't impossible to do, but it made us think a bit before getting our shields battered.
2 JanxJelantru
Actually, not using Warp and using Jump only for one reason: you cannot do bombing runs there, and not becuase you cannot engage jump drive immediately after you jumped, but because you cannot precisely move with jump drive (because you cannot see exact distance, it's rounded up to nearest K for display). But again, this isn't Warp or Jump drive's fault, its the bombing run itself. Warp drive with no cooldown is fine, mines that activate immediately and cannot be avoided at all - they are the problem that must be dealt with.
2 MarkBell
Is great that 2.0 already went into the direction of enemies shooting down mines. IMHO mining should remain an option, meaning regular enemies should not see the mines that player had placed, and should be hit by them, but bombing run should not work against any kind of enemy, that's why I propose a longer activation time for mines, and for any enemy to be able to fire at mines (and do it as first priority) that have been recently dropped by player.
Actually, not using Warp and using Jump only for one reason: you cannot do bombing runs there, and not becuase you cannot engage jump drive immediately after you jumped, but because you cannot precisely move with jump drive (because you cannot see exact distance, it's rounded up to nearest K for display). But again, this isn't Warp or Jump drive's fault, its the bombing run itself. Warp drive with no cooldown is fine, mines that activate immediately and cannot be avoided at all - they are the problem that must be dealt with.
2 MarkBell
Is great that 2.0 already went into the direction of enemies shooting down mines. IMHO mining should remain an option, meaning regular enemies should not see the mines that player had placed, and should be hit by them, but bombing run should not work against any kind of enemy, that's why I propose a longer activation time for mines, and for any enemy to be able to fire at mines (and do it as first priority) that have been recently dropped by player.
[Last edited Jul 23, 2013 15:52:14]
+1 for fixing it with improved AI.
They can see you drop it so they can (for a short period after dropping) shoot it. This would solve dropping it right on top of them.
Or (if it is further out so they can't just shoot it) they know where you dropped it so they go around.
Then you can just tweak their "sight range" for balance.
If this was implemented I feel it would make mines more, well, mine-like. I'd probably use them to circle stations at the beginning of the game.
They can see you drop it so they can (for a short period after dropping) shoot it. This would solve dropping it right on top of them.
Or (if it is further out so they can't just shoot it) they know where you dropped it so they go around.
Then you can just tweak their "sight range" for balance.
If this was implemented I feel it would make mines more, well, mine-like. I'd probably use them to circle stations at the beginning of the game.
I don't know why people think the bombing runs are difficult with no warp. My team uses the bombing run and jump backward and engage the remaining targets. Take away the bombing run it boils down to no tactics at all, pull up to enemy boost shield and beams. This will put me to sleep.
In Nemisis the Scimitar disables the Enterprise warp engines.
For this situation, you have to judge when you are taking too much damage and predict your escape before it's too late.
Furthermore, some of us like Bridge versus Bridge combat. In this scenario the bombing runs are crucial as warp drive outruns everything but beams. Lengthening the activation time will render this almost or completely useless as it takes some skill to hit you mark as it is. Also I have a Map designed where each ship loses warp drive when they close on each other, we exchange some weapons fire and the Captain has to order a retreat before it's too late. Some of the best fights I've had!!!
I like the idea of a setting for what people want in game. Short of this why not drop all mines off in a defensive area and fight without them?
the ship warps in and starts shooting, or gets in trouble and then warps away to retreat
In Nemisis the Scimitar disables the Enterprise warp engines.
retreating is important and mechanics of the game work in such way that if we don't allow warp in combat, as soon as ship's shields go down it's dead
For this situation, you have to judge when you are taking too much damage and predict your escape before it's too late.
Furthermore, some of us like Bridge versus Bridge combat. In this scenario the bombing runs are crucial as warp drive outruns everything but beams. Lengthening the activation time will render this almost or completely useless as it takes some skill to hit you mark as it is. Also I have a Map designed where each ship loses warp drive when they close on each other, we exchange some weapons fire and the Captain has to order a retreat before it's too late. Some of the best fights I've had!!!
I like the idea of a setting for what people want in game. Short of this why not drop all mines off in a defensive area and fight without them?
What if the mines where only 25% effective when launched, after 3 to 4 seconds it increases to 50%, then to 75 and then 100. Then we could still use the bombing runs but it would be far less effective. For defensive purposes the mines would have sufficient time to fully arm.
On the other hand, you could just not use them if you think they are over powered. It is the easiest fix of all.
I think there's a tricky point to this topic. Namely, what kind of play style do people want.
The warp-bombing run is just a variant on micro-warp tactics. namely, engaging the enemy by rapidly dropping out of warp, making a short attack and re-warping before the enemy can react.
I have no doubt it is effective when deployed by a crew like Captain's as he advocates.
But is it in the spirit of the game or genre? Or is more like that cheezy combo your cousin always used in Mortal Killer Fighter to kill you to death on the Super NES?
Just because something is effective, doesn't mean it's good game design.
A symptom of a broken game mechanic, is that really effective players are all always using the same mechanic to overwhelming success. if there's no point in using a different tactic because the player has found the one true perfect tactic, then odds are good, there's something unbalanced in the design that favors that one tactic.
On the converse, while I'm wary of any player who's against changing the rule because they use/abuse to their favor, Captain still raises a good point. Without it, what else is there to do in combat besides drop out of warp and trading shots at the enemy until they die or you need to retreat?
I suspect any of the ideas we have right now for fixes to this perceived problem may be moot once we all see 2.0 and the smarter enemies.
The warp-bombing run is just a variant on micro-warp tactics. namely, engaging the enemy by rapidly dropping out of warp, making a short attack and re-warping before the enemy can react.
I have no doubt it is effective when deployed by a crew like Captain's as he advocates.
But is it in the spirit of the game or genre? Or is more like that cheezy combo your cousin always used in Mortal Killer Fighter to kill you to death on the Super NES?
Just because something is effective, doesn't mean it's good game design.
A symptom of a broken game mechanic, is that really effective players are all always using the same mechanic to overwhelming success. if there's no point in using a different tactic because the player has found the one true perfect tactic, then odds are good, there's something unbalanced in the design that favors that one tactic.
On the converse, while I'm wary of any player who's against changing the rule because they use/abuse to their favor, Captain still raises a good point. Without it, what else is there to do in combat besides drop out of warp and trading shots at the enemy until they die or you need to retreat?
I suspect any of the ideas we have right now for fixes to this perceived problem may be moot once we all see 2.0 and the smarter enemies.
there's no point in using a different tactic because the player has found the one true perfect tactic
Please tell me what this one perfect tactic is? I would not rely on the bombing run as an only tactic, nor do I agree on removing them totally.
I definitely do NOT like the idea of a "50 second cool down" on warp engines. This would break the game far more than the mines, for sure. I've been scripting a lot lately and 50 seconds in-game is a LONG ASS time.
I could get on board with the "no weapons while in warp" idea - that has some merit as it makes sense that torps, mines or beams would be too volatile at warp speeds. It fits the fantasy.
I like Charlie's idea most of all; have mines 25% effective when first launched, 50% after X seconds, 75% after X more than 100% after that.
This would nerf bombing runs but leave mines as useful in other ways.
My 2 cents.
T
I could get on board with the "no weapons while in warp" idea - that has some merit as it makes sense that torps, mines or beams would be too volatile at warp speeds. It fits the fantasy.
I like Charlie's idea most of all; have mines 25% effective when first launched, 50% after X seconds, 75% after X more than 100% after that.
This would nerf bombing runs but leave mines as useful in other ways.
My 2 cents.
T
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